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Category Archives: Religious

Why can’t we get the Sacraments ?

19 Sunday Apr 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Ordination, Religious

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alter Christus, secular clergy

As we know hundreds of thousands of people throughout the world cannot receive the Eucharist or have a sacramental life. This is because most of us receive the sacraments from the secular priest, celibate and supported by a parish, and the secular priesthood is a thing of the past. The bishops won’t listen to the Pope’s invitation to discuss extending valid ordination to parish members.
Let’s boil this down a bit. The bishops are denying us the Eucharist and the other Sacraments. And many priests seem to agree with them- qui tacet consentire.
It’s as simple as that .
We can only speculate as to why this is. And believe us, we will, over the next few weeks. We’ll skip the obvious images, like doctors ignoring the sick, lawyers truanting court, etc. We can adjust without them .And here in Scotland we’re used to that kind of remarkably difficult adjustment when considering the local ecclesiastical crisis.
One of us was asked, when bringing up the subject of extended ordination, if “we fancied putting on the collar, then.” That is an actual statement. It’s true. We’ll get to that attitude later. Oh, we will, we will.
But the bottom line is: why won’t the secular clergy give us our Sacraments ?
Suggestions, by the way, are welcome. We’ll take our theories in no particular order, although the first one is rather important.
Here’s a statement from a newly ordained priest in an American diocese in 2008. It is quoted from a US blog, details available if required. He is transparently sincere, which is the problem, of course. It is his priestly education which is at fault.
“A priest is most a priest in the quiet, hidden moments of his day when he is confident in his identity as
alter Christus, consoled by his sacramental proximity to the fountain from which graces flow, and
humbled before the God who chooses men to be His representatives and instruments in the world.”

Well, there you are. If you think you’re an alter Christus, why should you listen to anybody else ? Even if there are people all over the world who would like access to the “fountain from which graces flow” , but can’t get this, because of the secular priesthood system ? By definition, if you’re an alter Christus, everyone else is wrong. This does make it difficult to get things changed.
But there are other reasons . As they used to say, watch this space.

St Maeve’s and Death : Part 2.

12 Sunday Apr 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Religious

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Coffin Dancers, funerals, Requiem Mass

After the short evening service, next day there was the Requiem Mass- and the mourners. It was the custom in Naples, well within living memory, should there be a lack of mourning relatives, to hire an impressive mourner or two, known as a “Zio di Roma”, an uncle from Rome. In Anderston, the equivalent, unhired, were “Cousins from Partick”. At almost all my family’s funerals there were two mourners, exemplary in their demonstration of regret, personifications of sadness at the passing, and, by their presence, ostentatiously indicative of a faith in the next life into which the deceased would, inevitably, pass. The only problem was that none of us ever knew who they were..
One of the last flings of the so-called Native American, in an attempt to avoid meeting modern life and its problems, like hygiene and not torturing people was, in the 1890s, the Ghost Dancers, who believed that by following certain rituals they would be impervious to bullets. The Glasgow equivalent is the Coffin Dancers, professional mourners, whose first daily action is a look at the “Deaths” in “The Herald”. Immediately identifiable in the Forties by the possession of a Crombie overcoat, a garment capable of standing up by itself, and guaranteed to be impervious to a cross-bow bolt, but generally replaced nowadays by an anorak, they are to be found at all Glasgow funerals, while their professional colleagues do their work
Coffin Dancers enjoy funerals. There is the dark thrill of the familiar sombre prayers, the “De Profundis”, when present, always with that familiar increase in volume at “From the morning watch even until night”, then the fade after it, even an actual pat on the light oak of the coffin, as one goes up to Communion, maybe even the whiff of corruption. And, above all, as the coffin is carried out into the fresh air- and a bit of rain’s fine here-the sound of the traffic registering more intensely than usual, there is the ultimate thrill of knowing that , once again, it’s not me this time, and that another coffin has been danced on, an emotional situation described by a literary American undertaker as “the exhilaration of survival”.
From the graveside, the path is normally direct. For the spiritually minded, it is the memory of the deceased into their subconscious , always to be part of their memories. For others, it was to the City Bakeries, or to one of the many hotels which depend on funerals for their existence. The Coffin Dancers have their roots firmly based on real life. They are disciples of Cyril Connolly, who described funerals as ultimately cocktail parties for the over-sixties. One of these locally is known to have carried a knife and fork in his pocket in case of a deficient purvey. They are less concerned to play tag with the Grim Reaper than to make sure, by drifting carefully towards whatever relatives seem to be running things, that they hear the magic invitation to join the family for the funeral breakfast. Among the many problems, not all of them spiritual, which this group has is the regular impact on the digestion of a breakfast preceded by the choice of whisky, sherry or orange juice, then tomato soup, steak pie and Black Forest gateau. And, of course, the worry of whether there may not be another funeral for a couple of days.
. The final movement of the coffin is, of course, to the cemetery. A local motoring sport unaccountably overlooked by satellite and cable is “Keeping Up With The Hearse”. Hearse drivers don’t go any faster than anyone else, no doubt to the astonishment of psychologists , given their cargoes, but it is a fact that trying to keep up with a vehicle going at 30 mph often calls for travelling at a considerably higher rate. If only through superstition, hearses are granted precedence at amber lights; other less immediately identifiable members of the retinue are considered merely to be incompetents..
Conversation for primary mourners on the journey to the cemetery, can be restricted and a little strained. It may deal with new and hitherto unsuspected traffic lights, new and hitherto unsuspected supermarkets, and why JCB drivers expect to be treated like ordinary motorists. Anything, in fact, but the point at which the limo will halt for apparently interminable negotiations, before a movement to a point in the cemetery usually so far from the city that buses in the livery of Edinburgh Public Transport can just be detected in the distance.
The priest always seemed to have got there first, and, with surplice and stole, intoned the eternal verities of the requiem service, often paralleled antiphonally by less religious comments from mourners who have stumbled over concealed graves into damp potholes. Across the gaping rectangle of the grave there will still lie rough wooden boards, earth-stained and in themselves symbolic of ongoing life’s lack of concern. Around it the gravediggers are gathered, twisting their caps like fugitives from Millais’s “The Angelus”. The service finished, there is the distribution of cords, the purple tightly knit, silken or man-made, fibres, ending in a heavy, stylised artificial knot, are attached, all six of them, to strategic points of the coffin.
The distribution of cords was and is rigorously allotted to relatives in terms of closeness, the offer of a surplus cord being regarded as perhaps the ultimate compliment to a friend of the family. The perceptive, cynical teenager may detect here the possibility of post-funerary conflict. They may well be right. But, with symbolic inevitability, there would come that most evocative of funeral sounds- the thump of the knot on the end of the cord on the top of the coffin, on the brass plate, if aimed correctly, and the interment, and the last interface with the deceased was over.
970 words

Good Friday 2015

06 Monday Apr 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Religious

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Hollywood too often goes over the top. The multistringed orchestrations and the heavenly choruses can be, and have been, overdone. But who among us can claim to be consistently surefooted ? Nevertheless, the 1959 film of “Ben Hur” is undoubtedly in a class by itself in the brilliance of its musical accompaniment by Miklos Rozsa, and in particular in the “Hosanna” as Christ dies on the Cross, and His Precious Blood, mingled with the water of the rain, flows from the foot of the Cross , into rivulets and puddles, and streams, into the water cycle, like all water, indestructible, like all water since Creation began, to be part of all life until the end of Time , a wonderful lilting , positive exaltation, in music, of the Baptism of the human race in water and the Blood of Christ , from then and forever a Baptism of the cosmos itself.
Resurrexit, sicut dixit. Alleluia.

Scandalous

29 Sunday Mar 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Religious

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Cardinal O'Brien, Extending Ordination, lost generations of Scots Catholics, scandal, Scotland, Scottish Catholics, the history of the Church

Cardinal O’Brien will certainly go down in history. One of only 24 cardinals who have offered their resignation since the fifteenth century- another was Cesar Borgia-, and seemingly the only one in the history of the Church to decline to vote in a consistory, he managed to alienate homosexuals and homophobes simultaneously. In passing, he may well have confirmed the deepest suspicions of other religions in Scotland about Romanism well into the foreseeable future . Scottish Catholics have to live with his activities, both personally and in the community , the latter being very important in a country where identification of another’s religion can be more important than the practice of one’s own. The “Tablet” magazine has this week confirmed some of the revelations that were suspected, and pretty damning they are.
There is no indication yet that the Scottish episcopate is willing to help. Why not a complete and open general description of the situation in the Church in Scotland over the last twenty years or so ? Given the difficulty of getting any of the bishops but one even to acknowledge receipt of a letter, perhaps this is far too much for us to expect. But The Emeriti, of course, if they had known about these things, must be asking themselves why they said nothing, although Archbishop Emeritus Conti did accuse the cardinal of blocking an enquiry into clerical sexual abuse. But they’re out of the firing line, forgotten but not gone.
The current bishops, more and more insulated from Catholics in Scotland , still hanging on to that most devastating of illusions that it Will Be All Right, have to watch, as we have seen in Edinburgh, congregations dwindling even more, with the number of alienated generations moving now from two to three. Why not face up to the fact that the Church in Scotland is a shambles ? A new and dynamic start, from scratch, may well still save the situation, as well as giving a lead to other tardy episcopates. Could we suggest Extending Ordination? The Bishops of Scotland- and most of those in England and Wales- will find in their files the very practical suggestions sent to them last year by To Feed The Flock.

The Path From Rome

10 Tuesday Mar 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Religious

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Church centralisation, Curia, Pope Francis and admin

Is there much to be gained by having the Vatican in Rome, if you know what we mean?
There’s 9 of the confusingly named Congregations, i.e. main offices. There’s 12 Pontifical Councils., and a raft of smaller committees.
Why not pick some of the world’s major cities, say 4, and settle some of the main offices say in Seattle, Rio de Janeiro, Cape Town and Manila? There must plenty of empty office buildings available, so no great expense is required. We’d have added Shanghai, of course, one of the world’s greatest cities, and with God’s help that’ll be available in a year or two.
It takes me less time to talk to my next door neighbour by Skype, or even e-mail than it does to go round and knock his door. The Pope might well find it easier to get a message through to Rio or Manila than to the far end of some of those long corridors.
The mental picture one gets of a busy beehive of monsignors buzzing about the golden roofs and marble walls isn’t one that impresses. The Church is often criticised for being Eurocentric. This would show it’s not.
The Italian tourist industry and Rome’s hotel industry might complain, but need they ? The Vatican ‘s administrative function has no tourist value, and the growing Chinese/Japanese tourist influx is unlikely to shrink.
And what a breath of air , given the claustrophobic atmosphere of the Curia, so brilliantly analysed by Pope Francis in December.
To be unable to see the wood for the trees is much more than unfortunate where the provision of the Sacraments is concerned.

Death- and St Maeve’s

01 Sunday Mar 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Religious

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Glasgow, Glasgow Irish

Our elderly parishioner of St Maeve’s sends the following:
On a school trip, I had been thrilled by all the sights and sounds of Paris, which , like any visitor there, I have never forgotten. And it was not all visiting churches, although there is one I do remember, Ste Odile’s, I think. It had the parish hall underneath it, the part under the altar being kept for corpses lying overnight for a funeral service next day. I didn’t know if Apache dancers really existed in Paris, but remembering how easily even eightsome reels at parish ceilidhs could degenerate into aerobatics, it could have been that resting in peace in this parish might exclude being struck by a flying brunette. Wakes in Glasgow were handled much better.
When I was about ten, my grandmother McKerrell’s best pal, Mrs Fox, died. All I remember of Mrs Fox, alive, was an always warm and welcoming smile for her pal’s first grandson. Many may feel nowadays- if they’ve never watched some children’s TV cartoons, that is- that I was too young to be exposed to the fact of death. But it happened then, and my grandmother obviously chose that wake with some care. I don’t know now what Mrs Fox died of, but as I came into the room where she lay in her coffin, still with the same smile which I knew so well from afternoon visits and cups of tea, I got the message. Mrs Fox had died; her soul was in heaven; but her body was still here for a while; and she didn’t look at all as if the whole thing had been any kind of a problem.
This was possible, of course, only because her body looked quite unaffected by death. I have since been at wakes where my grandmother would never have let me see the body. My father suffered all his life from what we would now call insecurity. In old age, he was inclined to attribute this not just to seeing such a corpse as a child, but being held over the coffin to kiss it.
The wake was one of the very few Irish customs which survived emigration, although in a much tamer form. Death, given the working and living conditions in nineteenth century Glasgow, was very familiar indeed to the Glasgow Irish. The modern euphemism for a funeral service is to call it “a celebration of the life of…”.An earlier generation with an Irish background may have misunderstood exactly what “celebration” means here, but were perfectly happy with their own version. Because there was a celebratory element, shall we say.
The Irish and the Highlanders were not going to let a twelve hour working day in Glasgow inhibit their sociability. Weddings were important. My great-grandfather was self-employed as a blacksmith, and his lasted for three days, until a misunderstanding about the expression “best man”, the guests simply appearing as they got off work. Funerals were just as important, and could also last , given our climate, for three days. Inevitably there were refreshments, sometimes card schools and , less often than in Irish and Irish-American wakes, a little horseplay.
Enter the Man Who Was Barred From Wakes, who operated mostly in the north of the city, as meek looking a wee man as you would ask for at a funeral. He would move respectfully to the open coffin, break down in a paroxysm of grief over the deceased, and attach a loop of linen thread to a finger. He would then unobtrusively pay out the thread, and sit at the side of the room until late in the evening or early in the morning, pull the cord and shout “Look!” There was a tendency to make for the exits. At one wake, two country cousins, unaccustomed to tenement life, chose to do this by the window, which was unfortunately two stories up.
Death as a social phenomenon made itself known to the Glasgow Irish household in the simplest possible but most irrelevant terms: the trestles appeared. Polished wooden triangular structures, in their very functionalism they indicated an impersonal and therefore terrifying attitude to death, by their irrelevance to everyday life. I mean who needs trestles in a room and kitchen? Morning-coated acolytes would close the room door for a short time-their very intrusion into the family home indicating in itself the presence of another world- and then the coffin was open to inspection.
Until quite recently in Glasgow, before it became the custom to have the body remain in the undertaker’s parlour, the old, traditional wake was statutory. A running buffet, at morning rolls on corned beef, cheese, tomato and scrambled egg sandwiches level was kept going for a day or two, and an extensive range of alcoholic refreshments, none of this doing any harm at all, and ,if nothing else, keeping the relatives of the dead person distracted from their grief.
The evening rosary was the watershed of the evening, but eventually it would be time for the “screwing down”. When the final rosary had finished, there was the first movement of the coffin, which was to the church, where it normally lies overnight. In a few Glasgow parishes, where there was a church with a bell-tower, there was a knell, and a procession behind the hearse. At any rate, there would be the moment when the coffin would be hoisted on the shoulders of the chief mourners, its edges remarkably sharp on the shoulders, the close contact with it sometimes bringing a quite powerful whiff of corruption, then the slow movement up the aisle to where the coffin would lie before the altar.
This could involve a movement up external steps in the older churches, always a crisis point for the undertaker’s helpers. I don’t know of any occasions where the mourners actually dropped the coffin, but there is one case where the professional integrity of the undertaker was found wanting in the most spectacular way: the bottom vertical panel fell out, and the shrouded corpse slid out, like some latter day Lazarus, to bump its way down the stairs, for a last unexpected visit to the main road, through a crowd of instantly and spectacularly prayerful mourners.

Hypothetical priests- and a Flock to match ?

23 Monday Feb 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Religious

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Archbishop Cushley, Scottish clergy in 2035

Two interesting pieces of news. Pope Francis-speaking to his own priests as Bishop of Rome-
suggested,possibly in two different ways, that the traditional secular priesthood
need not be the only way of giving the Eucharist to the world.
Firstly, he said that the issue of ordaining married men to be priests is “in his diary”.
He may also have said “I would not store this question in an archive”.
It is obvious that the issue of altering the traditional position of the secular priest
is still very much part of his thinking. Some of these days his bishops will accept this.
The second thing is about Archbishop of Edinburgh and St Andrew’s Leo Cushley.
No, I don’t mean he acknowledged a letter about something he didn’t like. No, come on !
Let’s be reasonable ! You’ll be suggesting that the Papal Delegate, Archbishop Mennini
should be doing this next !
Anyway, he has worked out that in 2035 he could count on having 30 or so diocesan clergymen in 2035.
(He didn’t say what age they might be. But consider investing in zimmers).
It was pointed out in a letter to “The Tablet” that,in the last five years alone there have been
unprecedented changes in world affairs, like the Arab Spring, an increase in militant Islam,
the emergence of a belligerent Russia, the resignation of a new pope and the election of a new dynamic one.
Not to mention the reappearance of Ebola, and the constant possibility of something like it or worse.
And are there any of us who can be sure what our lives will be like at 20.35 pm any day next week,
never mind 2035AD ?
With the Archdiocese’s decline in church attendance , of course, in 2035 there may well
therefore be one priest per parishioner.

What can one say? Well, we know, but we’ll leave it at that- just now.

General Absolution

15 Sunday Feb 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Religious

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Code of Canon Law, General Absolution, Ladislas Orsy, Sacrament of Reconciliation

Obviously, when valid ordination is extended, General Absolution will be a necessity.
But apart from that, it must come.
There are already too few priests and too many people no longer active Catholics for it to be
practically possible for them all to go to confession in the box.
We may be putting a man on Mars soon, but human ingenuity cannot arrange a means of
letting people obtain forgiveness for their sins .
In 1973, Pope Paul VI announced a revision of the Sacrament of Reconciliation, as confession was now to be known,
which included general absolution. In 1984, the Polish Pope banned this. It became known that as a young priest, he could spend an hour with each individual penitent, since he saw confession as a drama.
Comment on this is irrelevant at the moment, without possibly giving offence.

But of course- we can let people obtain forgiveness for their sins.
The problem is that Canon Law will not permit it without “grave necessity “.
Some may feel that 50000 parishes without a priest, not to mention those struggling all over the world
with too few, is a grave necessity but, apparently there you are.
We remind you again that the Code of Canon Law as it stands was put together as recently as 1917,
by Messrs Gasperri and Pacelli, in a Vatican atmosphere of riveting and welding the status quo
on to Catholic life with as many nuts and bolts as possible. They were creatures of their time,
although the boy Pacelli did quite well later on.
(A essay title for theologians: ‘How would you define the relationship between Canon Law and the Holy Spirit? Discuss.’)

We know when to let the experts speak. We suggest you Google:
“General absolution-Theological Studies-“ and up will come ’General Absolution: New Law, old Traditions, some questions Ladislas Orsy, S.J.,’
You should have no trouble finding it.

Essentially, he says :”I want to recall some typical forms used by the Church to grant pardon. Those forms
taken singly and together can give us a good understanding of what is permanent and what is
changeable in our traditions. “
Also, :”The law of the new Code should not be interpreted as the full expression of divine revelation;
there remains a long way to go in understanding the mystery of forgiveness through the ministry of the Church,
and even longer to make laws accordingly. Our present structures and norms contain
historically conditioned elements which can be changed.”

The attitude of the Bishops in general to the Code of Canon Law reminds one irresistibly of the
old academic book review :”He uses statistics as a blind man uses a lamp-post, : for support rather than illumination”.
This is not, we remind you, a cynical or even insulting anti-secular priest blog.
But is it possible that it is simply too easy for Bishops to say, ”Well, that’s Canon Law, so there.”
Or- and we are going to go into this quite soon- is it for the absolutely unbelievably ludicrous belief,
which exists, that “Rome” might be offended?
What is “Rome” here? A nasty letter from an uppity Vatican civil servant ?
Or- surely not- fear of a black mark on one’s promotion record?
And for this people cannot receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation?

Fr Ladislas Orsy also appends a useful note on what the Code of Canon Law is, and , more importantly, is not.
He also comments in passing;”True, many persons have experienced a kind of natural healing
through the implicit therapy of confession; equally truly, many persons were hurt deeply by imprudent confessors”.
We recommend him to you. And we ask you to remember, as you read this,
those who are prevented, despite themselves, for whatever human reason, from making their peace with God.

from making the peace with God which they desire.

Amateur Preachers? No Way!

01 Sunday Feb 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Religious

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intensive education courses, religious orders

We remind you that this not an anticlerical blog. You can find spectacular examples of this on the internet, and see the
difference. It firmly believes that the future of the Church depends on the religious orders and on the values which their vows of poverty, chastity and obedience bring to it, as well as their extensive and intensive theological studies, which will always be required.

One possible and quite practical template for the Extension of Ordination to parishioners has appeared on this site. A basic feature of it is that no Ordained Parishioner would be allowed to preach, doctrinal input being obviously under the control of the Bishop. It is 2015, and sermons of the highest class and topical relevancy, prepared by the religious orders, can be provided within days by internet. Obviously, therefore the secular clergy’s five or six year training period would no longer be necessary.

Really intensive education courses appeared of necessity in WW2, and have since been refined and improved. A
course of no more than a year would be perfectly adequate to prepare for the administration of the Sacraments. And of course would not be provided in Latin. In any case, parishioners are unlikely to vote for a person who is educationally subnormal.

This blog does not believe that the five or six year course of study for secular priests is necessary or desirable today.
1. This was obviously over-compensation by the Council of Trent for generations of neglect.
2. Could it also simply have been a celibacy test ?
3. Were these studies carried out and supervised with intellectual rigour ? The acid test would be if anybody failed them. Have we heard of many cases?
4. What benefits could these studies have brought to the average congregation at Sunday Mass,usually with a wide IQ range , by the preaching of the average secular priest, no matter how dedicated ?
5. Or are these years of study intended merely to highlight the notion of the ontological theory of priesthood, as well as its image in general ?

Whatever the benefits of a five or six year course of education, are any of them worth keeping today, if doing so is an obstacle to the provision of the Eucharist when fifty thousand parishes throughout the world are without priests?
With Islam on the march, and an entire infrastructure having to be created if China is brought back to the table, has the Church got six years to waste ?

And the old system did not always work. A visiting preacher in a Glasgow church galvanised the congregation some years ago by his emphasis on the importance of fate. It was eventually deduced that the preacher, from a different continent, was trying to say ”faith”. And perhaps an important point as the clergy ages, the elderly incumbent of an Irish parish (insert stage Irishisms to taste) was said to bring any topic whatever within minutes, to the two men who went up to the Temple to pray, eliciting the comment from a dispirited parishioner that “it was a dam’ bad day for this parish when those two fellows went up to the Temple to pray.”

Ordained Celebrants,(i.e. parishioners) will not be properly trained, we will no doubt hear.
We say-trained for what, exactly?

It’s Not Just Us…Far From It

20 Tuesday Jan 2015

Posted by jimmyk1967 in Religious

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Extending Ordination, futurechurch.org, Pope Francis and celibacy

On Sunday, we came across futurechurch.org, a website based in Ohio. Like us, they believe in an open letter to
their Bishops. We are pretty well on each others wavelength, and we thought you might like to see it.

Dear Bishops,
On a trip home from Tel Aviv, Pope Francis stated:”Celibacy is not a dogma of faith, it is a rule of life
that I appreciate a great deal and I believe it is a gift for the Church. The door is always open given that
it is not a dogma of faith.” And in a recent conversation with Bishop Erwin Krautner, Pope Francis discussed
the priest shortage and future of the priesthood in Brazil, urging the bishop and all local bishops to be
“courageous” and to make concrete suggestions on the possibilities available to assist in this crisis, including
expanding the priesthood to include married men.
Now we are looking to you, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) to follow Pope Francis’s
call to be courageous in seeking solutions to our growing priest shortage and to present these solutions
to Rome.
(there follow two paragraphs on the specific needs of the Church in the USA).
Following Pope Francis’s model, we urge the USCCB to undertake a fresh examination of our early church tradition
of a married and celibate priesthood, a diaconate served by women and men, and invite priests who have married
back to ministry. Please encourage local bishops to open this important dialogue at a diocesan level
particularly in the areas most affected by the priest shortage.
We also ask the USCCB to open a discussion of these issues at their general assemblies with a view to
presenting concrete suggestions for opening ordination to Pope Francis.
We call on you, our bishops and brothers in Christ, to to encourage discussion of the genuine reform
so essential to the future of the Church. We have an opportunity to save our church from a future
wrought with priest-less parishes and Mass-less Catholics. ; we urge you to take action now.

We have written to them,and hope to hear from them soon.

It is not clear whether they have sent their letter yet, and we hope they have better luck
than us. It will be interesting to see if the custom of ignoring letters from the flock
has crossed the Atlantic.

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